6 Mai Shen Jian Article

[siegefried]

Well, BMSG seems to have 2 parts to it...

what DY learnt was how to absorb internal energy... what happens as far as I know is that how they practice BMSG is to reverse the flow of how internal energy normally flows, so when they are in contact with their opponents, instead of the energy flowing ---><--- to clash, it goes --->---> into the practitioner's body... and the BMSG that XZ learnt was how to utilise Bei Ming Zhen Qi....

Ling Bo Wei Bu stems from the 8 Trigrams.. which I dun have much knowledge of. But basically, its more of a flow I guess... like how and where to move such that the flow according to the 8 trigrams is followed...

[Wu Xing]

As I remember, Ling Bo Wei Bu (LBWB) is based on Yi Jing (Book of Change). Yi Jing has 64 hexagrams and each one represents one change. Each hexagram comprises of 6 broken/unbroken lines or 2 trigrams (Note 1: each trigram comprises of 3 broken/unbroken lines and there are 8 possible trigrams, 8-trigram or Bagua. Note 2: 8x8 = 64). The root of Yi Jing is based on Wuji, Taiji, Yin/Yang, Liang Yi, Si Siang, Wu Xing, Bagua, etc. We may say that Yi Jing contains the root of Chinese philosophy and sciences.

It was stated that LBWB consists of the stepping patterns that based on Yi Jing. LBWB move is (pretty much) unpredictable with unexpected changes. I'm not sure whether it help the Qi circulation or can be used as a Qi gong. Although Duan Yu (DY) didn't know anything about martial art, he was quite familiar with Yi Jing (since it is one of the books required in Confucious study in which DY was very knowledgable). That is why, as JY explained, DY was able to learn (and probably understand?) LBWB.

This is what I remember.

[danshu_]

so since it goes wuji..etc...bagua -> 10,000 things, then LBWB should have pretty much unlimited changes.

[Wu Xing]

so since it goes wuji..etc...bagua -> 10,000 things, then LBWB should have pretty much unlimited changes.

It is true but no one can record 10,000 stepping patterns in one book. But, through the understanding of the principles of changes, one can make it unlimited from limited.

Therefore, in my opinion, 64 hexagrams of Yi Jing represents the unlimited with limited. In other words, while there are unlimited variations but its principles are not unlimited.

[kidd]

But, how does unpredictable steps makes the practioner able to move fast? I can see how it's good for avoiding attack and attacking, because the opponent can predict your move, but I can see how it improves speed.

When DY has a running competition with XF, what makes him move so fast? LBWB or high internal energy?

[Wu Xing]

But, how does unpredictable steps makes the practioner able to move fast? I can see how it's good for avoiding attack and attacking, because the opponent can predict your move, but I can see how it improves speed.

When DY has a running competition with XF, what makes him move so fast? LBWB or high internal energy?

I'm not sure about this part. As I remember, it could be both, that is, both DY's high internal energy and LBWB. What I remember is that LBWB is basically a footwork. However, as I said above, it "may" improve the internal energy and light-kungfu skill of a practitioner. In other words, by designing the stepping patterns through the 64 hexagrams, these patterns may improve the internal energy and light-kungfu skill as well. It may make sense to assume that, if one can step correctly, you may have a bit faster + energy-efficient step or even can be able to generate internal energy through the stepping patterns.

Nevertheless, my memory about the effect of LBWB on the internal energy and light-kungfu skill is not very clear. I need to reread this part again in order to make a correct statement. I probably check it out tonight but only translation of DGSD that I have right now is the 1st edition (but most of my memory is based on the 2nd edition ).

[Candide]

It is easier to block 6 or 10 qi swords coming simultaneously from one person than it is to block 1 or 2. The power is divided.

[danshu_]

It is easier to block 6 or 10 qi swords coming simultaneously from one person than it is to block 1 or 2. The power is divided.

I think DY could only bring out the power of 1 sword, meaning if he could bring out 6, each would be as powerful as his original one... otherwise what would be the point of having six swords?

anyway, why would 6 be easier to block than 1, assuming the power was divided? Overall, the power is the same, yet coming from different directions.

But as far as I understand it, 6MSJ at its highest level has 6 swords. These 6 swords manifest as 10 streams of sword qi (exiting each of 10 fingers). DY's single sword is not the power of all 6 meridians combined into one; its just 1/6 of the total.

[kyss of the sword]

the reason duan yu had problems using 6MDS was he didn't practise duan family's inner power before practising it. he learned XYP inner power when learning BMSG and LBWB. then he learned to channel his power in reverse to use BMSG. 6MDS needs the power to go forward, and he had to concentrate to do that, his power naturally went in reverse when he did not try to control it. duan yu only learned the basic of XYP inner power through he learned most of BMSG's technique and LBWB. the manual he had got torn by his inner power when he was suffering from inner power flow problems before going to heavenly dragon temple. he learned LBWB easily already knowing the essence of yi jing. BMSG was mainly a 'xinfa' technique to use inner power and make it his own. the inner power used was the same inner power used for 6yang palm, tianshan crippling palm, XWXG, etc. he new how to absorb power from opponents but didn't master how to merge inner power into his channels and make it his own. it was only later after getting 6MDS that he learned to properly direct the inner power he absorbed but it wasn't the same as wuyazhi's method but still effective. later after absorbing JMZ's inner power, duan yu learned duan family's inner power and remaining skills and corrected the flaws in his techniques.
duan yu did not have the full and proper BMSG to pass down to his desendents. wwhat he knew was to dangerous to practise, unless you had 6MDS to 'fix' the missing part of BMSG's technique.

[danshu_]

I don't know if your post is a reply to mine or not, but if it is, I'm not arguing why DY had a problem with 6MSJ. All I'm saying is that DY's one sword is 1/6 the power of 6 swords.

[Candide]

I think DY could only bring out the power of 1 sword, meaning if he could bring out 6, each would be as powerful as his original one... otherwise what would be the point of having six swords?

6 Swords have different properties. Some are weaker but faster, some are stronger but slower, etc. Alternating between them gives an advantage as it confuses the opponent.

anyway, why would 6 be easier to block than 1, assuming the power was divided? Overall, the power is the same, yet coming from different directions.

The same source of power (the practitioner's) generates the swords. Generating 6 simultaneously means that the power is divided by 6. They all come from the same direction (the practitioner, you can't divide him into 6). The angles will differ obviously but not by much. 6 swords, each at ~17% the power AND speed of 1 sword, are easier to block or dodge. Their impact on the opponent will be only 17% overall of the 1 sword.

Think how you calculate pressure. Or think of it this way: if I throw a stick at you using the same power, but in two ways: 1- the side/length of the stick hits you in the chest; 2- the end of the stick hits you square in the chest. Which one do you prefer?

A perfect example comes in the early chapter on Celestial Dragon Temple when Jiumozhi fought the Dali monks. The monks' combined inner energy would be greater than Duan Yu's at the time, yet their 6MSJ swords launched from various directions simultaneously were easily blocked by Jiumozhi's Hell Fire Sabres. However, Jiumozhi could not block (and did not dare to block) Duan Yu's single sword.

Duan Yu's weakness in his 6MSJ execution (in the Shaolin fight) isn't because he only used one sword. It's because he only used one repeatedly then slowly switched to a new one, as he wasn't able to alternate between different swords smoothly. If he could alternate between the 6 swords, Murong Fu wouldn't last more than 5 stances.

[kyss of the sword]

A perfect example comes in the early chapter on Celestial Dragon Temple when Jiumozhi fought the Dali monks. The monks' combined inner energy would be greater than Duan Yu's at the time, yet their 6MSJ swords launched from various directions simultaneously were easily blocked by Jiumozhi's Hell Fire Sabres. However, Jiumozhi could not block (and did not dare to block) Duan Yu's single sword.

actually, the monks used their swords in a formation but their inner power wasn't really combined. it was like having five(the grand monk didn't fight immediately) weak PBI orchid palms at you compared to one HL18Z palm. duan yu had absorbed several people's inner power and those people weren't weak in inner power. he also had eaten the fire frog and centipede which boosted his power before he absorbed any inner power. and he also had been practsing XYP's inner power which is on par with shaolin and duan family. so his inner power by then should be roughly equal to maybe four monks. his one sword was more powerful then the individual swords of the other monks, who weren't probably as good as yidengs disiples since they only mastered yiyangzhi to around the fourth level. but duan yu was a hidden talent like his 'real' father, duan yanqing.

duan yu doesn't have to shoot six swords at once, impossible since he only has five digits on his hand, he could combine the power of the six meridiens and shoot out one superpowerful sword instead. more logical.

[Wu Xing]

I'm not sure about this part. As I remember, it could be both, that is, both DY's high internal energy and LBWB. What I remember is that LBWB is basically a footwork. However, as I said above, it "may" improve the internal energy and light-kungfu skill of a practitioner. In other words, by designing the stepping patterns through the 64 hexagrams, these patterns may improve the internal energy and light-kungfu skill as well. It may make sense to assume that, if one can step correctly, you may have a bit faster + energy-efficient step or even can be able to generate internal energy through the stepping patterns.

Nevertheless, my memory about the effect of LBWB on the internal energy and light-kungfu skill is not very clear. I need to reread this part again in order to make a correct statement. I probably check it out tonight but only translation of DGSD that I have right now is the 1st edition (but most of my memory is based on the 2nd edition ).

To kidd,

After I check two parts of the translation of the 1st ed. DGSD that I have (which is not a good translation, btw) including the time that DY learned LBWB and the running competition between XF and DY. I think JY didn't make it clear about LBWB concerning your questions but I think I can put some explanation to fill the gap that JY didn't mention in the novel. First, LBWB relates to internal energy, that is, internal energy can effect LBWB and LBWB can effect internal energy. While the unpredictable/unexpected part is the major character of LBWB as the major usefulness of LBWB in the fighting. In the running competition with XF, LBWB did help DY to run faster but this was supported by DY's high internal energy. Actually, it is no surprise that the stepping pattern can increase the running speed. A runner need to learn 'how to run' to be able to run fast, that is, it is not like you can run fast by running any way you want (the stepping pattern/rhythm, the breathing technique, etc. are all required).

Well, at least, this is what I got.

[Wu Xing]

But as far as I understand it, 6MSJ at its highest level has 6 swords. These 6 swords manifest as 10 streams of sword qi (exiting each of 10 fingers). DY's single sword is not the power of all 6 meridians combined into one; its just 1/6 of the total.

In my opinion, each of six swords requires a hand/body posture to shoot the power/energy out. So, six swords may require 6 hand forms. Each hand form may require to stick a particular set of fingers or one finger out. Other fingers that are not sticked out may be curved to a palm in order to balance the energy and keep a correct qi circulation in order to 'push' energy out in the correct 'channel'.

Therefore, don't you think it is possible that all six swords cannot be shot simultanously?

As mentioned in the novel, the problem of DY when he fight with MRF at Shaolin temple is that he was not skillful enough to switch one sword to another. Therefore, when he switched from one sword to another, there was an openning that MRF can exploit. So, it was better for him at that time, as XF suggested, to concentrate on one sword when attack MRF (no switching = no openning) and then he can switch to another sword (which he will concentrate on this new one and then he can switch so on and so on) as he did in the novel when he fight MRF. However, if his skill is good enough, he can use all six swords alternately and skillfully in a way that suit to defeat his opponent/enemy which is the way 6MSJ should be used. The variation of combination of six swords can be infinite. Also, since each sword has different characteristics, it is possible that there exists combination of alternation of six swords that can break any opponent's stance(s).

Please check out the novel about the DY vs MRF fight at Shaolin. I think JY mention how to use six swords effectively. He also explain why DY cannot do it and need to follow XF's suggestion and how DY really did it successfully once he got XF's suggestion.

[yittz]

少泽剑 - pinky (left)
中冲剑 - middle
商阳剑 - index
少冲剑 - pinky (right)
关冲剑 - ring finger (pericardium)
少商剑 - thumb (lungs)

According to the novel the each side of pinky has a different mai sword.

Duan Yu used both pinky sword qi to deflect JMZ's fireblade, and was able to drive him back.

Kurong used both thumb sword qi to strike at JMZ. JMZ expected only one attack (the one to his chest he blocked), but did not expect the second one at his shoulder, and hence scoring a shot.

None of the other monks (Ben generation) were described to use both hands simultaneously (albeit two of them practiced one side of pinky).

[strife_au]

just wondering in the 1995 version of ROCH that monk dude had 6MSJ at the start when fighting LMC... is that just a TVB edit?

[kidd]

Have u mistaken Yi Yang Ji for 6 Mai Shen Jian?

[TommyH]

just wondering in the 1995 version of ROCH that monk dude had 6MSJ at the start when fighting LMC... is that just a TVB edit?

it's yiyang finger...it's similar to 6msj but umm...let's say not as strong?

[TommyH]

I have a question on 6MSJ...is it just like Yiyang Finger where you shoot energy chi from your hand? What's the real difference between these two skills? Are they basically the same except that you could shoot 10 chi from all your fingers at once with 6MSJ and that they're as long as swords?

[CFT]

Can DY fire all 6 meridian swords at once? My impression was that despite his great store of internal energy, he could still only use one sword at a time. This is a limitation of the 6MSJ technique rather than DY's failings as a martial artist. Still, if one can cycle seamlessly from sword to sword that is a rather moot point.

I thought the the monks of the Celestial Dragon temple could only use one sword because their inner power was only sufficient to cultivate one meridian.